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Author Topic: The Single Reason Why IT & Programming are Ageist/Youth Oriented  (Read 172 times)

The Gorn

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The Single Reason Why IT & Programming are Ageist/Youth Oriented
« on: February 10, 2019, 09:14:22 am »
Example:

Quote
The dam scrip kiddies keep reinventing the wheel and coming out with new stuff all the time for literally no reason.

I will explain why this is, right now. It's REALLY obvious.

I'm about to give the community here the reason for something important, that should form a framework for later discussions.

We rattle around a lot on this board bitterly complaining about the industry. How it demeans and denigrates experience, accomplishments, and character.  How developers invent and push new crap continually for absolutely no good reason at all -  even when it's repetitive, broken, isn't really any good, is unwieldy, and/or is unreliable.

Here's the unified field theory on this subject. Please everyone, drop the aspie naivete about human nature... People are ALL motivated by vanity and the need to feel better than the next guy/person....

You know how weight lifters lift weights, and how useless that activity by itself is except to increase muscle mass, but has ABSOLUTELY no benefit other than that as well as bragging rights, reputation, winning awards and respect?

IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME THING WITH PROGRAMMING. EXACTLY. So stop complaining cause you will NOT change human nature.

Programmers are the athletes, the weight lifters of the brain.


This means: USELESS HARD WORK - pushing against almost immovable resistance for no good reason except to show your strength - IS NORMALIZED. REINVENTING THE WHEEL IS NORMALIZED. BEING SCORNFUL OF EASIER WAYS IS NORMALIZED.

It's totally, quite obviously built into the culture of CS and IT. I used to do it. VB developers or FoxPro developers were supposed to be retards who would not learn the obviously superior compiled languages like Visual C++ (a monstrosity.) That's the vain dumbass young programmer speak thinking.

Please, aspies, note this before you go off in the dark going "durr hurr hurr it unfair durr slobber".

Everything programmers do to churn up the occupation and create false progress - extensions to proven languages that have no net benefit, heavy APIs, verbose documentation,  ever increasing syntax complexity of long established tools like C++ -

All have ONE AGENDA:

Make things in computer science VERY VERY HARD to approach for the first time.

So developers now in the game will feel empowered, powerful, better than outsiders, and part of a kindred race of "brain brawn".

Actual real world weight lifting doesn't cater to experience, age, good intentions, or accomplishments. Only pure muscle is respected.

CS is the process of making things really hard for the next guy to take over your code.

How could all of you people be so obtuse?  ;D

IT'S NOT ABOUT PRODUCTIVITY!!!!!! HELLO. IT'S ABOUT DICK WAVING AND ASSERTING YOUR PURE STRENGTH TO WADE THROUGH SELF CREATED HARDSHIP.

I mean, really. This is observation 101 IF. YOU. JUST. STEP. BACK.

I DEFY ANYONE ON THIS BOARD TO identify ONE, JUST ONE!!!! way that computer science permanently embraced some important simplification that makes things easier.

Also to counter the reaction that "proper businesses just wouldn't accept programmers diddling around wasting time inventing hard stuff to test themselves"... BZZZT BZZZT NAIVE.

Don't be naive. Executives and owners have NO idea that their techies are lying to them, or not. Every techie follows other techies to make their job harder, like a herd.

So executives and owners never see this constant erosion of value in the service of programmer ego and dick-waving. They talk with other owners or executives that are in exactly the same environment.

Young programmers in the game have a de facto monopoly on defining the rules of the playing field. You need them to keep your IT running. And when you have them, they will unwittingly participate in this overall competitive wastefulness.

Last point: Programmers doing this stuff probably have no idea they're doing it. First of all they have no experience to show them that the "improvements" are bullshit. Their experience in industry goes back 3-5 years, not 15-25 years to really see how things get harder for no real reason.

Secondly they  are personally invested in the mindset because they need to keep their job or find a job and lead techies will be as invested as anyone in the waste/mental weight lifting mentality. Programming is a social environment. You have to subscribe to the memes that everyone else does if you want a job.

You WILL see programmers adopt mantras/memes such as DRY (don't repeat yourself) and conserving activities such as reducing verbosity of code.

However, in almost EVERY instance, programmers economize on the surface level complexity of their creations while burying mountains of complex assumptions and defaults under the surface.  Developers tend over time to make things APPEAR simpler, on the surface. But the knowledge required to approach the subject matter always increases.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:53:39 pm by The Gorn »
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The Gorn

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Please explain it here, now. I'm open to the notion that I got it wrong, or that there is another competing theory that explains things as well.

But I believe I totally nailed it to the exclusion of lesser causes that ARE significant but my theory identifies 75%+ of the reason why young people "hoard" IT.

Please make certain that your idea:

Is evergreen. Is not a short term trend like "H1B durr hrurr hurr."
Is tied to human nature.
Is apart from nationalistic or political or ideological motives that you ascribe for your personal reasons.

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ilconsiglliere

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Re: The Single Reason Why IT & Programming are Ageist/Youth Oriented
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 11:05:20 am »
Example:

Quote
The dam scrip kiddies keep reinventing the wheel and coming out with new stuff all the time for literally no reason.

I will explain why this is, right now. It's REALLY obvious.

I'm about to give the community here the reason for something important, that should form a framework for later discussions.

We rattle around a lot on this board bitterly complaining about the industry. How it demeans and denigrates experience, accomplishments, and character.  How developers invent and push new crap continually for absolutely no good reason at all -  even when it's repetitive, broken, isn't really any good, is unwieldy, and/or is unreliable.

Here's the unified field theory on this subject. Please everyone, drop the aspie naivete about human nature... People are ALL motivated by vanity and the need to feel better than the next guy/person....

You know how weight lifters lift weights, and how useless that activity by itself is except to increase muscle mass, but has ABSOLUTELY no benefit other than that as well as bragging rights, reputation, winning awards and respect?

IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME THING WITH PROGRAMMING. EXACTLY. So stop complaining cause you will NOT change human nature.

Programmers are the athletes, the weight lifters of the brain.


This means: USELESS HARD WORK - pushing against almost immovable resistance for no good reason except to show your strength - IS NORMALIZED. REINVENTING THE WHEEL IS NORMALIZED. BEING SCORNFUL OF EASIER WAYS IS NORMALIZED.

It's totally, quite obviously built into the culture of CS and IT. I used to do it. VB developers or FoxPro developers were supposed to be retards who would not learn the obviously superior compiled languages like Visual C++ (a monstrosity.) That's the vain dumbass young programmer speak thinking.

Please, aspies, note this before you go off in the dark going "durr hurr hurr it unfair durr slobber".

Everything programmers do to churn up the occupation and create false progress - extensions to proven languages that have no net benefit, heavy APIs, verbose documentation,  ever increasing syntax complexity of long established tools like C++ -

All have ONE AGENDA:

Make things in computer science VERY VERY HARD to approach for the first time.

So developers now in the game will feel empowered, powerful, better than outsiders, and part of a kindred race of "brain brawn".

Actual real world weight lifting doesn't cater to experience, age, good intentions, or accomplishments. Only pure muscle is respected.

CS is the process of making things really hard for the next guy to take over your code.

How could all of you people be so obtuse?  ;D

IT'S NOT ABOUT PRODUCTIVITY!!!!!! HELLO. IT'S ABOUT DICK WAVING AND ASSERTING YOUR PURE STRENGTH TO WADE THROUGH SELF CREATED HARDSHIP.

I mean, really. This is observation 101 IF. YOU. JUST. STEP. BACK.

I DEFY ANYONE ON THIS BOARD TO identify ONE, JUST ONE!!!! way that computer science permanently embraced some important simplification that makes things easier.

Also to counter the reaction that "proper businesses just wouldn't accept programmers diddling around wasting time inventing hard stuff to test themselves"... BZZZT BZZZT NAIVE.

Don't be naive. Executives and owners have NO idea that their techies are lying to them, or not. Every techie follows other techies to make their job harder, like a herd.

So executives and owners never see this constant erosion of value in the service of programmer ego and dick-waving. They talk with other owners or executives that are in exactly the same environment.

Young programmers in the game have a de facto monopoly on defining the rules of the playing field. You need them to keep your IT running. And when you have them, they will unwittingly participate in this overall competitive wastefulness.

Last point: Programmers doing this stuff probably have no idea they're doing it. First of all they have no experience to show them that the "improvements" are bullshit. Their experience in industry goes back 3-5 years, not 15-25 years to really see how things get harder for no real reason.

Secondly they  are personally invested in the mindset because they need to keep their job or find a job and lead techies will be as invested as anyone in the waste/mental weight lifting mentality. Programming is a social environment. You have to subscribe to the memes that everyone else does if you want a job.

You WILL see programmers adopt mantras/memes such as DRY (don't repeat yourself) and conserving activities such as reducing verbosity of code.

However, in almost EVERY instance, programmers economize on the surface level complexity of their creations while burying mountains of complex assumptions and defaults under the surface.  Developers tend over time to make things APPEAR simpler, on the surface. But the knowledge required to approach the subject matter always increases.

Forgot about the reason you stated but its very true. I have seen this over and over in CS/IT. Its about vanity and d*ck waving to show that you are the BSD (big swinging d*ck).

Show everyone that are smarter and more hard core than the rest. I have also seen this with math, engineering and chemistry.

The Gorn

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Re: The Single Reason Why IT & Programming are Ageist/Youth Oriented
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 01:24:00 pm »
Quote from: Archimedes
Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world.

Quote from: Dumbass Programmer, which is virtually all of them
I'm not working hard enough to feel good about myself. Let me saw off this lever so I have no advantage of any kind. Then everyone will be impressed and I will get a raise!
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SoftwareDev

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Re: The Single Reason Why IT & Programming are Ageist/Youth Oriented
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2019, 07:54:33 pm »
We rattle around a lot on this board bitterly complaining about the industry. How it demeans and denigrates experience, accomplishments, and character.  How developers invent and push new crap continually for absolutely no good reason at all -  even when it's repetitive, broken, isn't really any good, is unwieldy, and/or is unreliable.

I'm going through this right now at work.  I have a co-worker who took it upon himself to re-write an app that I wrote years ago.....even though there is nothing wrong with it.  The same guy bitches and moans about his workload. 

Here's the unified field theory on this subject. Please everyone, drop the aspie naivete about human nature... People are ALL motivated by vanity and the need to feel better than the next guy/person....

This guy is being taken advantage of by management.  He'll do everything they ask and doesn't push back because he has this need to look better than everyone else. 

This means: USELESS HARD WORK - pushing against almost immovable resistance for no good reason except to show your strength - IS NORMALIZED. REINVENTING THE WHEEL IS NORMALIZED. BEING SCORNFUL OF EASIER WAYS IS NORMALIZED.

There are health benefits to lifting, although yes, a lot of people lift for the wrong reasons.

CS is the process of making things really hard for the next guy to take over your code.

How could all of you people be so obtuse?  ;D

IT'S NOT ABOUT PRODUCTIVITY!!!!!! HELLO. IT'S ABOUT DICK WAVING AND ASSERTING YOUR PURE STRENGTH TO WADE THROUGH SELF CREATED HARDSHIP.

Exactly.  There are a couple of guys in our group who bitch and moan about their workload.   They say yes to everyone, take on everything management shoves in their direction (and then some).  They stay over often (after spending a good portion of the day flapping their gums).  Both were gone the past couple of days as well as the director.  Everything ran smooth.  There were no problems.

I mean, really. This is observation 101 IF. YOU. JUST. STEP. BACK.

I DEFY ANYONE ON THIS BOARD TO identify ONE, JUST ONE!!!! way that computer science permanently embraced some important simplification that makes things easier.

Also to counter the reaction that "proper businesses just wouldn't accept programmers diddling around wasting time inventing hard stuff to test themselves"... BZZZT BZZZT NAIVE.

Don't be naive. Executives and owners have NO idea that their techies are lying to them, or not. Every techie follows other techies to make their job harder, like a herd.

Some people are really good at shameless self promotion and making themselves look smarter than they really are.

So executives and owners never see this constant erosion of value in the service of programmer ego and dick-waving. They talk with other owners or executives that are in exactly the same environment.

Young programmers in the game have a de facto monopoly on defining the rules of the playing field. You need them to keep your IT running. And when you have them, they will unwittingly participate in this overall competitive wastefulness.

Last point: Programmers doing this stuff probably have no idea they're doing it. First of all they have no experience to show them that the "improvements" are bullshit. Their experience in industry goes back 3-5 years, not 15-25 years to really see how things get harder for no real reason.

Secondly they  are personally invested in the mindset because they need to keep their job or find a job and lead techies will be as invested as anyone in the waste/mental weight lifting mentality. Programming is a social environment. You have to subscribe to the memes that everyone else does if you want a job.

Just about every interview I've been on in the recent past, for programming gigs, they all want to know how one works in a team.  This trumps productivity and getting shit done.

You WILL see programmers adopt mantras/memes such as DRY (don't repeat yourself) and conserving activities such as reducing verbosity of code.

However, in almost EVERY instance, programmers economize on the surface level complexity of their creations while burying mountains of complex assumptions and defaults under the surface.  Developers tend over time to make things APPEAR simpler, on the surface. But the knowledge required to approach the subject matter always increases.

Well said.

The Gorn

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Perceived effort == perceived value
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 09:44:57 am »
I was "unfortunately" quite a bit bombastic in making the point. But this is a overall dynamic that even I've overlooked in my career ... because it is so simple and obvious.

There's the element of self-aggrandizement, dick-waving, but I think just the self-image thing of feeling like you worked hard and deserve glory is a bigger factor.

Perceived spent effort creates a sense of value. I read someplace about Betty Crocker cake mixes in the 1940s and 50s - they came up with a mix  that didn't require eggs to be added to the mix. Test subjects felt like the mix was too easy and wouldn't buy it. The company modified the formula to require eggs to be added in the consumer's kitchen. The consumer acceptance was much better.

Housewives of the time needed the validation of adding something additional to an off the shelf recipe. Not doing so was unacceptable to that culture. Imagine that today.  ::)

It kind of reminds me of workplaces where the boss thinks you're lazy because he doesn't see sweat rolling off your forehead.

I think this notion has completely infused me and it's REALLY hard to get away from.

And generally nobody from other industries understands it at all in IT. IT people are too aspie and unobservant to recognize it, either. 

AND IT people are too busy to recognize it when pointed out.

AND IT people are locked into believing it as a shared moral value!!!! That's a cause of major dysfunctionality.
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Re: Perceived effort == perceived value
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2019, 08:00:55 pm »
AND IT people are too busy to recognize it when pointed out.

There was a time when I did NOT recognize it.  I recall when a visiting co-worker, a project manager from another branch years ago called me a "sucker".  I couldn't wrap my head around it then. 

Now not only do I recognize it but observe others fall into the same trap.  It can be frustrating to witness but I keep my mouth shut because it does me no good to say anything.

The Gorn

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Re: The Single Reason Why IT & Programming are Ageist/Youth Oriented
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2019, 08:15:32 pm »
You really don't dare. Not with co-workers. Even outside working hours.

Understanding this stuff requires stepping outside of the career box. It's pretty much impossible to understand as a normie.
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unix

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Re: The Single Reason Why IT & Programming are Ageist/Youth Oriented
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 05:14:18 pm »

I am sure it tastes better with the eggs in it. I like eggs.

Put some eggs in it, please.
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SoftwareDev

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Re: The Single Reason Why IT & Programming are Ageist/Youth Oriented
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 08:28:20 pm »
You really don't dare. Not with co-workers. Even outside working hours.

Understanding this stuff requires stepping outside of the career box. It's pretty much impossible to understand as a normie.

It also requires self awareness, which is lacking in these people.

ilconsiglliere

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Re: Perceived effort == perceived value
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 04:04:18 pm »
AND IT people are too busy to recognize it when pointed out.

There was a time when I did NOT recognize it.  I recall when a visiting co-worker, a project manager from another branch years ago called me a "sucker".  I couldn't wrap my head around it then. 

Now not only do I recognize it but observe others fall into the same trap.  It can be frustrating to witness but I keep my mouth shut because it does me no good to say anything.

They are aspie social retards. Bottom line.

Have seen these people my entire career. Pissing and moaning about their workload - well, duh... NOBODY made you do it.

I have a client right now a project that is like this. He doesn't "have the time" to give feedback on functionality we are developing. He is a regular Mr. Joe Corporation - totally rah, rah company. Look at me, how cool I am that I work 100 hours a week for FREE. This guy is not IT but he is a scientific modeler. For all intents and purposes he might as well be IT. Same exact deal.