NOTE TO computerconsultantsforum.com and forums.techcareerfubar.com USERS: This is the same site. Your login will work here. Use the "forgot password" function if you need help recovering your password.

Get rid of this big black message box by joining here: http://mature-it.pro/register/

Obvious fact: You're not logged in.

Therefore, you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg of great discussion threads on this site. The frankest, most raw and truthful observations about employment and work life in the IT and engineering fields are in "members only" sections that are ONLY visible when you are registered and you log in.

If you're 35 or over, and work in IT, or are retired from IT, and you dislike the herd mentality and clueless, adolescent snobbery of forums such as "Hacker News", then you really should join this board. Why? Because you're too smart for Facebook. And everyone needs someone to gossip, commisserate, and chat with at their level.

Who we are:

A collection of IT, engineering and sciences professionals, in a variety of current circumstances with a variety of career backgrounds. Including:

  • System admins
  • Developers and programmers
  • Freelancers and "gig" entrepreneurs
  • Contract, job shopping and FTE-employed contract house IT workers
  • Web developers
  • Inventors
  • Artists and writers with tech backgrounds

This forum has its roots in the 1990s buildup of the IT field into what we know today and has been around since 2002. 10s of thousands of messages and threads about a variety of career, FTE, contract, and side gig issues and opportunities.

If you're as smart as the typical experienced IT professional, you have a critical mind that has a hard time staying engaged with pop culture and generic issues of the day. And you're WELL beyond the fanboy mentality of the young developer communities. Get some relief here.

Register on the board - your email is NEVER sold or provided to third parties. Then LOGIN FREQUENTLY to see new stuff daily. Note to long lost members: all politics have been marked as "opt in" only. You won't see anything political unless you ask for it.

Join by Registering here: http://mature-it.pro/register/

Author Topic: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks  (Read 687 times)

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 09:52:14 am »
Good god man. Windows is such a terrible env for design and stuff. But then again I don't design in Java and stuff. Just hack together Perl scripts, occasionally Korn shell.

I  know this doesn't directly address your concerns.    From a *user* level, I am not sure.  Really, I am not.

WORD PROCESSING. Microsoft Word. Oh, noes, commercial!

CHECKBOOK AND BUSINESS APPLICATIONS.

WEB DESIGN.

LIGHT GRAPHICS EDITING.

Windows is GREAT at all of these. Linux is completely absent to incredibly annoying at all of these.

You ever work with Quickbooks, Unix? It's what ALL of my business flows through. Every penny I earn or spend. It only runs on Windows, not Linux. No, I'm not going to replace it with FOSS shitware.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 10:12:05 am »
I am going to try the Mate window manager, though.

Arrrr, Matey!
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

pxsant

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 11:45:51 am »
Something I didn't mention.   You used to be able to install both Cinnamon and Mate and then choose which to use and switch back and forth if desired.   That is probably still possible.  You might check the software manager or Synaptic to see if that is still possible.

My main Linux system is tied up on a process I have running so I did the test of installing Cinnamon and Mate in a VM on a windows laptop.   There are 4 mate packages you will need to install.

  *  MintMenu
  *  Mate-desktop
  *  Mint-meta-mate
  *  Mate-themes

Once installed, you will need to do a reboot, not just a logout.    When you log in, the log in screen has a session manager very small icon in the upper right of the login screen.  You can choose to run either Cinnamon or Mate in the session manager before logging in.   You can tell which is current selected by the icon which will be an "M" for mate or a "Ci" for cinnamon.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 12:30:21 pm by pxsant »

benali72

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 2718
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2017, 01:46:46 pm »
Gorn, one thing to mention. You're taking on a lot at once. You seem to have the bandwitdth to handle it, but I'm not sure I would.

For starters, it might just be easier to accept the Mint detaults --

Backup/Recovery -- use the simple default gui panel (backuptool)
Encryption -- just check the default when you install and you're done (why CryptKeeper?)
Desktop & Window Manager -- don't mix and match them, just pick one standard

You can always change and improve things later.

Looks like you're more ambitious than me, but that's how I'd start.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2017, 05:58:56 pm »
Something I didn't mention.   You used to be able to install both Cinnamon and Mate and then choose which to use and switch back and forth if desired.

I installed the stuff you suggested.

Well, I am a clueless bastard. I THOUGHT I was in Cinnamon. I had been assuming that. I never knew that login had a choice and I never noticed the icon. I had been running with "xfce desktop" or something like that.

I just chose mate. It doesn't display my panel setups (taskbar) although it does show the same desktop icons, just arranged in a quite different order.

I'm not certain I understand what difference the different window managers will make. I want lightest weight, easiest to maintain, configure and set up desktop. I have no feeling for that whatsoever.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

pxsant

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2017, 06:45:17 pm »
XFCE is a lighter weight desktop than either Cinnamon or Mate.   But I don't particularly like it.    Of all of the desktops I think Mate would be the easiest to use, especially with the easy to use menu system. 

Which desktop choices show up in the session manager?    I am surprised Xfce is even there unless that is the distribution you down loaded  to begin with.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2017, 07:09:19 pm »
Cinnamon
Cinnamon with software rendering or something like that
MATE
xfce (default)

I have no idea what the distro said. I thought I downloaded generic Linux Mint.

Benali, per your questions -

> Gorn, one thing to mention. You're taking on a lot at once. You seem to have the bandwitdth to handle it, but I'm not sure I would.

This is always how I get my bearings. It's experimentation and seeing what works.

> For starters, it might just be easier to accept the Mint detaults --

Thought I did...

> Backup/Recovery -- use the simple default gui panel (backuptool)

I haven't even thought about backup of this reborn system. After all, don't HDDs last forever? :P

> Encryption -- just check the default when you install and you're done (why CryptKeeper?)

Why Cryptkeeper, it's SIMPLE, it seems to be stable, it fits what I'm doing better than anything else I've tried.

I'm NOT encrypting a disk volume and there's no default choice for what I need. I'm just encrypting a small collection of files which I unlock on demand. TrueCrypt on Windows worked perfectly for what I needed. Veracrypt on Linux is unstable crap. I have no interest in whole disk volume or large scale ongoing encryption of gigs of live files.

> Desktop & Window Manager -- don't mix and match them, just pick one standard

Thought I did!!!!

I don't know why what I'm doing looks so onerous and chaotic. This is what you naturally GET when you take someone with business needs (me) and put them on a compelling but somewhat half baked platform that amounts to a CS grad student project.

Linux's user friendliness is still pure shit after all these years. The geek propeller heads who get a boner over proliferating alternative "klever" ways of doing things always seem to win to the detriment of Linux's curb appeal to ordinary users. Always.

15 ways to set keyboard shortcuts in Linux, and half of applets don't even work right! It would be better if there were no GUIs for some setting groups and just have the user drop to a terminal window to set things.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
Making the keypad !@&(! act like it does in Windows
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2017, 07:16:19 pm »
As a fast hunt and peck typist I demand that the keypad NEVER, EVER generate the G*ddamned number codes when I have numeric shift lock turned off... AND I demand that the number pad allow me to select lines with the shift held down plus the keypad HOME or END key. Which is a common key chord I learned on Windows. And which seems to even work on a lot of non Windows utility software.

Linux in its pedantic geek stupidity by default generates a 7 when I hold shift and hit the HOME key. Basically, the key chord of shift plus directional key should move in that direction plus select. My fingers are trained for that. Linux breaks that.

Ahh, asperger retard kids working on Linux code.

So here's the fix I found by crawling on forums:

setxkbmap -option numpad:microsoft

Not a GUI, applet or "system settings" function. A command line. IT WORKS. I got my damned select text back.

I have real contempt for this culture of ignoring usability. The Linux developers will say they don't but they don't spend hours in a word processing so they have no idea how annoying their shit is?

Do YOU guys get what I'm saying?
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
By the way... lightweightness...
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2017, 08:01:57 pm »
The xfce desktop feels FAR lighter weight and faster than either Mate or Cinnamon. In my opinion.

I gotta stop experimenting and get down to work. I have a client's site to start.

The only thing being, I got desklets to work in Mate (I am a normalfag average consumer - I want my weather bug on my desktop) but the desklets don't work at all in xfce.

Still, Xfce is my choice. I learned it already and the other desktops now feel cluttered.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

benali72

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 2718
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2017, 10:22:59 pm »
Gorn, one of the primary purposes of a linux "distro" is to provide the integration and stability you're looking for.  That's why -- if I understand your goals properly -- I would  just download one version of Mint and accept its defaults (at least for a start). That's your best shot for quick success without a lot of challenges or headaches.

By "one version of Mint," what I mean is one of these -- http://linuxmint.com/download.php

The desktop and apps will "just work". With little or no configuration or quirks.  Unless you want to get into that stuff.

That's the point of a distro.

Mixing and matching desktops is great fun (I mix Mate and XFCE, and Pxsant mixes Cinnamon and Mate). As is replacing the default apps with others one prefers.

But I wouldn't start there unless you feel like spending time on desktop, app, and integration issues.

What you choose to do all depends on your goals. If I understand them correctly, you don't want to spend time on configuration issues, stability problems, fixing app behaviors, and the like. If so, this strategy avoids that stuff for the great majority of people who follow it.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2017, 10:40:12 pm »
Gorn, one of the primary purposes of a linux "distro" is to provide the integration and stability you're looking for.  That's why -- if I understand your goals properly -- I would  just download one version of Mint and accept its defaults (at least for a start). That's your best shot for quick success without a lot of challenges or headaches.

By "one version of Mint," what I mean is one of these -- http://linuxmint.com/download.php

The desktop and apps will "just work". With little or no configuration or quirks.  Unless you want to get into that stuff.

That's the point of a distro.

Mixing and matching desktops is great fun

Hey, that's EXACTLY what I did - I downloaded Mint and I used the defaults. Pxsant, not me, brought up the notion of trying different desktops. Look, I don't know enough to even KNOW if I am mixing and matching anything. I don't understand the terminology that well yet or how this shit is layered.

It's quite stable. It's just not polished enough to feel comfortable yet.

And see, I'm talking about things you don't have describe any solution for. Taking the defaults means living with developer bugs and oversights.  Like the stupid mapping of the keypad and the obscurity of making it work like the world's most popular desktop OS. Your default distro with default settings was f***ed in that regard and there are other quirks I have already mentioned.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

pxsant

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 1689
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2017, 03:39:51 am »
"I have no idea what the distro said. I thought I downloaded generic Linux Mint. "

There is no generic version of Mint.   As benali72's link shows, they are all specific for a given desktop.   You must have downloaded the xfce version and I assume the 64 bit version.

Xfce is definitely lighter and faster than either Cinnamon or MATE.   It is really designed for limited older machines with a small memory footprint and slower processors.    So  it doesn't have some of the nicer features of the other desktops like the desklets.  It also uses a different set of utilities like the file manager.

But the bottom line is if it works for you, then use it and forget about all the other options for now.   You can always experiment some time later when you have free time.

benali72

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 2718
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2017, 09:17:10 am »
Hey, that's EXACTLY what I did - I downloaded Mint and I used the defaults. Pxsant, not me, brought up the notion of trying different desktops. Look, I don't know enough to even KNOW if I am mixing and matching anything. I don't understand the terminology that well yet or how this shit is layered.

It's quite stable. It's just not polished enough to feel comfortable yet.

And see, I'm talking about things you don't have describe any solution for. Taking the defaults means living with developer bugs and oversights.  Like the stupid mapping of the keypad and the obscurity of making it work like the world's most popular desktop OS. Your default distro with default settings was f***ed in that regard and there are other quirks I have already mentioned.

Oops, my misunderstanding. Sorry if my postings have been off-base or wasted your time.

Are you posting for help at the Linux Mint forum? The thread folder for XFCE is here -- http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewforum.php?f=54&sid=6d817fa4324509d9d52dc0bbf34ecc8c

I would think you could get answers to your questions there. Cheers.


The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2017, 11:52:43 am »
Oops, my misunderstanding. Sorry if my postings have been off-base or wasted your time.

Are you posting for help at the Linux Mint forum? The thread folder for XFCE is here -- http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewforum.php?f=54&sid=6d817fa4324509d9d52dc0bbf34ecc8c

I would think you could get answers to your questions there. Cheers.

No, not so much - sorry for the rant.

I'm just getting frustrated communicating to you guys exactly how Linux is very frustrating to someone who wants to use the computer as a tool, case frigging closed, period. I keep having to dick with things that have stupid, unreasonable behavior that is contrary to well established norms.

Also, important point, at times you guys are casting this as me rushing through or not knowing enough or not being properly inculcated in Linux-stry. Like I needed to go to school first effectively.

WHY THE F*** SHOULD I HAVE TO is my question. I'm not in the least offended because I understand the nerd-centric origin of this thinking, but it's the typical "blame the user AKA victim" mentality that pervades software and particularly open source.

Again, I'm not in the least offended and I hope you guys are not offended either. Both you and pxsant are giving me valuable perspective on what to expect on the technical bits.

And I gotta LOT of life and business issues outside this silly matter of tweaking Linux. I doubt I will post anything on my issues. They are quite generic, too much so to waste the effort to establish my question as serious, which is the usual first thing that happens in most tech threads where you aren't known to the regulars.

I'm in a crossover role. I am a deep techie, well over the heads of all end users. But I also have business needs that I must satisfy as a user of my choice of OS. Almost everyone is strictly in one camp or the other. So I get frustrated as an end user with a job to do, who is also techie enough to know when developers of halfway solutions are masturbating and wasting my time. That also frustrates me.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 22560
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
Re: Mixed feelings about Linux after living with it for a couple of weeks
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2017, 11:55:56 am »
Example of needing high level sysadmin skills to master Linux as a desktop:

I found that the numeric keyboard tweak that forced the desktop to regard shift+keypad always as directional, was lost when I logged out.

I found .profile and added

setxkbmap -option numpad:microsoft

I give average business user no hope of making Linux COMFORTABLE for daily use. IE: "God damnit, there I go typing a digit again because Shift+Home returns a 7. How the hell do I fix this? Google google google. AH, I GIVE UP! I'M BUYING A NEW WINDOWS LAPTOP AT SAM'S AND FORGETTING ABOUT IT."

That is NOT an unreasonable end user stance. That's the failure of the open source community to pull it's collective head out of its ass!
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.