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Author Topic: Time for a national id?  (Read 2731 times)

unix

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how about patches on jackets
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2008, 08:57:25 am »


The whole scheme is just more control, the whole "illegals" tangent is just a justification. Initially it  might not have the chip in it, but the agency is empowered to modify the requirements in the future, once they get their foot in the door.

National ID was present in every tyrannical society.


Brawndo. It's got what plants crave.

The Gorn

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'National ID was present in every tyrannical society'
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2008, 09:23:47 am »
I agree with this thought.  

What scares me is how this universal ID issue has been readily accepted by many people as an absolute necessity. Lou Dobbs, I was disappointed to see, is 100% behind the national ID concept and was lambasting Maine and other "holdouts" for stupidity last night.

Paranoia about improbable terrorist attacks has become so ingrained at this point that lock-downs deemed unthinkable 10 years ago are now expected.

"Land of the free, home of the brave." Well, not brave enough to do without regimentation and control of every citizen, apparently.
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David Cressey

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Re: 'National ID was present in every tyrannical society'
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2008, 10:07:59 am »
I agree with you.

I do think it's not really a complete departure from the past.

Consider the Red Scare of the 1920s.  Consider the internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry during WWII.  Consider the McCarthy era.  

The attack by terrorists has us really scared.  Especially since, in our own perception, we don't really know how to counter it.  That's the reason why people are so accepting of solutions they previously would have accepted.


John Masterson

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Or up it goes in nuclear smoke?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2008, 12:00:49 pm »
Quote
Quote:
The attack by terrorists has us really scared. Especially since, in our own perception, we don't really know how to counter it.


Just for discussion, what if the perception is essentially correct and... we really can't counter it?

Has a true democracy ever faced a test of whether it can withstand attacks from sophisticated terrorists who use the latest technology, PLUS the democracy's openness and freedom as a weapon against it, and quite effectively?

Is a more restricted democracy better than no society at all because it is blown away by a few smuggled in and well-placed nukes?



TRexx

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Re: Or up it goes in nuclear smoke?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2008, 12:21:42 pm »
Quote
Quote:
Is a more restricted democracy better than no society at all because it is blown away by a few smuggled in and well-placed nukes?


I don't think we have to fear nuclear holocaust.   I'm sure a terrorist could set off a few nukes in key places, but that is a long way from multiple ICBMS raining down on us from the Soviet Union.  

And what is the trade off?  How much freedom do I have to surrender for how much security?

John Masterson

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Re: Or up it goes in nuclear smoke?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2008, 01:48:13 pm »
TRexx,

I was thinking about how it could collapse our economy and infrastructure by destroying a few central metropolitan "hubs"  of telecommunications and commerce.

What would American society be like if the Internet were down for 6 months or a year, and no other electronic transactions could take place? No food distributed? No gasoline or diesel?



David Cressey

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Re: Or up it goes in nuclear smoke?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2008, 12:29:50 am »
All I'm going to say is that the debate is quite old.

When the fledgeling American government was just getting under way,  there was quite a lot of observation and philosophizing about it in Europe.  Much of it was favorable to the new government.

Many of the skeptics however dismissed the American experiment as "inconsistent with the security needs of a modern state".  In other words, they thought our insistence on limited government would bring about either an internal collapse or and external conquest.  

The British opted for empire rather than republic.  That worked out pretty well for them up unitl about world war I.

Freedom is risky (Ron Paul).

I don't think we should surrender our liberties for the sake of security in the face of terrorism.  Ben Franklin's caution against surrendering liberty for the sake of security still applies.

The one thing our present enemies are unlikely to do is effectively use our freedom and openness against us effectively.  They can cause us quite a bit of trouble, but they can't defeat us.  The only people that can defeat us is ourselves.


John Masterson

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Re: Or up it goes in nuclear smoke?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2008, 07:38:58 am »
Old debate doesn't mean the answer was found years ago.

Technology and threats change, and the question must be reevaluated as the situation evolves.

During WWII we had less freedom in the United States along many dimensions. After the war, things loosened again, as the situation and threat level changed.

I don't think we are in that kind of war now, but we are clearly not at a place we were at, in say, 1956. Witness the World Trade Center collapsing at the same time the Pentagon itself was attacked and damaged, and a flying suicide bomb headed towards the US Capitol...all on the same day!

Let the debate continue.

We will never have universal agreement on the restrictions that are wise...but the majority will decide.


The Gorn

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Islamic terrorism & other threats vs the cold war
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2008, 09:57:35 am »
Perhaps it takes 10-20 years for this country to get used to the idea of a specific type of long term threat and to learn to use logical, and not hysterical, tactics.

IE, the cold war started in 1945 and initially lead to hysterical responses like the McCarthy communistic scares of the early 50s. The distribution of the design secrets of nuclear weapons to the Soviets was part of this hysteria and fear of total annihilation and tweaked up the "scare level." By 1960 things had settled down.  

So that's 15 years from the onset of the threat to our society basically learning to live with the threat, at least internally.

Terrorism seems to be following a similar pattern. Almost seven years after 9-11 we are not emphasizing terror at every turn in our national dialog, but it still plays a significant role.

I wonder if a similar curve will apply to the current forced colonization of the US by, well, Mayans and Aztecs? (It ain't  exactly by "Mexicans", they're sending their more troublesome mixed race citizens up here while the more white European Mexicans stay back home, content that they're shipping their social problems out of the country. >:  )

Just a thought: if McCarthyesque thinking were applied to the national security situation, then being a Muslim would be a chargeable offense or at least would put you in a specific undesirable role in our society. At least that hasn't happened.
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John Masterson

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Re: Islamic terrorism & what we do in secret
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2008, 10:58:07 am »
Goodard,

Yes, I can see what you are saying. Seems plausible to me.

Sometimes I wonder how much has really been done "behind the scenes" to foil a catastrophic terror attack since 9/11, but was so repugnant and "anti-American" that we'll never know about it.

Perhaps we have a "public face" about the limits on what we'll do to protect the homeland and our people...and then we have what we really do, and have always done. Things that most Americans would find immoral, perhaps.

Thus keeping the country safe, and allowing life to go on, the economy to prosper...and the ACLU to loudly condemn all the things that have been quietly saving their bacon for years.


David Cressey

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Re: Or up it goes in nuclear smoke?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2008, 01:50:53 pm »
Quote
Quote:
Technology and threats change, and the question must be reevaluated as the situation evolves.


Fair enough.  I still regard the threat of the current terrorists as small compared to the threat of the USSR. And I will point to the fact that the current gang of terrorists have not been able to luanch another attack on US soil.  London, Madrid, and Bali, yes,  but not the USA.


Quote
Quote:
We will never have universal agreement on the restrictions that are wise...but the majority will decide.


Except when the constitution,  a legacy left by an earlier super majority,  says otherwise,  as interpreted by a present court.

In that case, it takes a new supermajority to amend the constitution.  Unless, as some of the louder voices keep claiming, it's possible to disregard the constitution without consequences.

David Cressey

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Re: Islamic terrorism & other threats vs the cold war
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2008, 01:54:32 pm »
Quote
Quote:
I wonder if a similar curve will apply to the current forced colonization of the US by, well, Mayans and Aztecs? (It ain't exactly by "Mexicans", they're sending their more troublesome mixed race citizens up here while the more white European Mexicans stay back home, content that they're shipping their social problems out of the country.  )


While the effect you describe is real,  I think the attitude you impute to the wealthy Mexicans is wholly fabricated.  Over history, successful people rarely migrate.  Under "successful Mexicans",  I"m including not only the fabulously wealthy Mexican plutocrats,  but also the substantial number who live the Mexican equivalent of a middle class life style.  


The Gorn

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Re: Islamic terrorism & other threats vs the cold war
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2008, 02:19:29 pm »
Of course the successful members of a society don't migrate.

The consistent impression I've gotten from the press is that Mexican society is extremely two-tiered. Europeans with more pure Spanish blood are the ones running the show, and the darker mixed natives with Mayan and Indian blood being the main components of the peasant and working classes.

The actions of the Mexican government such as printing official comic books showing detailed instructions on how to illegally enter the US reflect that the Mexican power elite is intentionally exporting their inequality to the US.
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Poster Rabid

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Give me a break!!
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2008, 03:47:01 pm »
While 99% of the containerized shipping into our US ports is NOT inspected, we have to take off our shoes and submit to x-ray boarding airlines and potentially submit to a new id system?

arrrrggggghhhhh!

(oh well, time to watch the Sarah Conner Chronicles)

rabid... rabid... rabid

Richardk

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Re: Give me a break!!
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2008, 07:46:36 pm »
It's supposed to make you feel safer since you can see your tax dollars at work. Do we have any stats on actual attempts that were stopped?

Most people don't see the un-inspected shipping containers and don't give a second thought to where all that stuff on Wal-Mart's shelves comes from.