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Author Topic: Clients wanting ASP.NET seem to want CSS, DHTML, Javascript  (Read 770 times)

ITWhore

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Clients wanting ASP.NET seem to want CSS, DHTML, Javascript
« on: August 25, 2005, 10:16:40 am »
I've been noticing that clients that are looking for an ASP.NET guy want the whole shebang including the extra webscripting skills mentioned here.  Oh, well, it looks like I may have to devote another couple of months of study before I can get a job.  Maybe I can take a low paying gig (i.e., $30/hr :(  ) with the understanding that I would slog my way through learning these skills.  Sigh

Webmaster Extraordinaire

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Been here before
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2005, 10:20:55 am »
ITWhore, those are part of the process.  Ya got's to have at least a basic understanding of them.  I wouldn't sweat any of them, I'd just go out, do some stuff with them, put it on the resume and move on.  Don't forget that you'll need to have a "basic" understanding of databases, html, and graphics too.

That's the role, bud!  Good luck!


JBB

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Re: Clients wanting ASP.NET seem to want CSS, DHTML, Javascr
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2005, 10:59:08 am »
Yeah, it's more of the same thing we've seen in the past.  Clients not sure what they want so they through everything into the job description and see what shakes out.

However, I would say that it's good to know some of the other stuff.  It's not really "other stuff" necessarily.  While you can do a lot with ASP.net on the server side, CSS is used often for web pages both on ASP.net and elsewhere.  Client side scripting (Javascript)  is always good to know (even though a lot of client side script is prewritten or generated for you by ASP.net).

The Gorn

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Sounds like clients want one stop shopping
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2005, 11:10:51 am »
ASP.NET is object oriented programming. CSS, Javascript, and DHTML are what I think of as web design, and are the specialty of the types who wear black goth clothing and have lots of piercings. :lol

Obviously clients must just lump all of it together as "web design". IMO, a seasoned OOP programmer with a bit of design sensibility can probably handle lightweight web design tasks, much more readily than a pure designer could handle any kind of server side development. (I've observed an arteest only type almost have his head explode when you utter the phrase "PHP".) But it's certainly not a natural matching of talents.
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JBB

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Re: Sounds like clients want one stop shopping
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2005, 11:25:05 am »
Yes and no.  Yes, a lot more die-hard artistic types work with web design and CSS than with programming.  Javascript and DHTML are definitely programming and the tools to implement effects that are designed not the tools used to create the design.  

You can use DHTML/javascript to implement an animation or you can code the same thing up in Shockwave or Flash.  Each have visual components (CSS) which are web design and code (javascript / actionscript / ecmascript) that are programmer skills.

Yes, both sets of skills are often lumped together as web design; however, some shops have separated the two specialties into separate positions/people.  That's less common than having staff that fills both roles.

No, it's not necessarily a natural matching of talents, but I have worked with quite a few people who can do both fairly well or reasonably well.

Dan

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Hey, Kool-Aid!
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2005, 02:56:49 am »
Quote
Quote:
ASP.NET is object oriented programming.[\quote]
Looks like you drank it, GB.

While .Net, like many other technologies, lends itself to OO, people still write some herrendous CRAP with it.
Witness the .Net/classic ASP website I'm currently remediating. The .Net code (C# in the code-behind) was written by someone who supposedly TEACHES this stuff. Plenty of ding-ding, tweet-tweet, but the crap does not work.
This clown went beyond OO into spaghetti-modelled obfuscation.

Oh yeah, in the mean time, I am also enhancing the Windows service (C++) that processes memory-mapped files from a handheld application (EVC4) and into and out of a SQL Server database and produces XML documents that are submitted via MSMQ to eConnect which passes the data on to Great Plains.

I am also supporting a classic ASP web content authoring tool that is extra heavy on CSS and JavaScript. By the way, no code changes have been needed for the content authoring application for over two years.

And I assure you, I do NOT "wear black goth clothing and have lots of piercings".

One thing that has NOT been written for these applications: technical documents. Seems the client doesn't want to "pay for fluff". He also wants to cut my rate to $30 because, notwithstanding the Windows service, SOAP/BizTalk-like XML expertise, XSL transformation, handheld application development, I have expertise with CSS, JavaScript, and DHTML.

And, as you seem to infer, anyone who knows web development cannot be taken se

codger

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We're really worthy of being called professionals
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2005, 04:46:42 am »
Quote
Oh yeah, in the mean time, I am also enhancing the Windows service (C++) that processes memory-mapped files from a handheld application (EVC4) and into and out of a SQL Server database and produces XML documents that are submitted via MSMQ to eConnect which passes the data on to Great Plains.

Rube Goldberg is smiling down from Heaven.

Who "designed" this?

The Gorn

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Since I'm cementing a rep of being a jackass...
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2005, 06:01:45 am »
I JUST meant that the people who do and like 'web design' AKA coding at the client end are generally NOT the same people who do coding at the server end.

IE: one (client end) is more artwork/design and UI; the other (server end) is more pure programming.

I think of the client end programmers as being what we have tended to label "web designers" - artistic people with some programming ability who create visual compositions.

And how many times have "programmers" been warned away from doing "design" because we don't have it in us to not produce a "gross" design?

With the 'black clothing and piercings' I was merely indulging a funny/common stereotype about artistic people who are often found in web development...
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codger

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Re: Since I'm cementing a rep of being a jackass...
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2005, 07:30:44 am »
Nicely written, but what are you apologizing for?

JBB

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no, not a rep of being a jackass...
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2005, 09:01:16 am »
I don't think that at all.  You just made a distinction that was incongruent with my experience and the experience of most of the people I've ever talked to who work in this arena.  Yeah, ideally the designers and programmers are two different people but quite frequently they're not and the ability to do good design is learned.  It's something that often improves with time and experience.

Dan

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I will tell you who "designed" it.
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2005, 03:11:59 am »
Nobody.
The client who doesn't want to "pay for fluff" considers any design that doesn't come from him to be "fluff".

He has gotten to the point now that he seems to believe he is the only person on the planet who is not a complete and utter moron. So whatever technology is the latest to catch his ear is the one that is (and has ALWAYS been) the company standard. Until the next buzzword comes along. Which is usually the next day.

One plus: I now have lots of in-depth experience with a large technology base. And a lot of first-hand, eye-witness experience with (how NOT to do) project management.

codger

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Re: I will tell you who "designed" it.
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2005, 04:20:28 am »
I understand exactly what you mean. I've worked for that type of individual on several occasions. I call this style of leadership "management by fiat".

Some of the absolute worst kluges have been spawned under the "leadership" of  these idiots. They are, depending on how abrasive their personalities are, giving clarity to the pHB concept.

You have my sympathy.

jfair

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Re: Clients wanting ASP.NET seem to want CSS, DHTML, Javascr
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2005, 05:53:58 pm »
As one who's resume includes that exact mix, I can tell you that if you have the .NET down, the majority of the tech interviews never touch the CSS, DHTML, Javascript side of things - in my experience at least.

As was mentioned before, learning them is not really a big deal, and shouldn't deter you from going after a position, assuming you have the .NET down.

Honestly 2-days and a good book will give you the basics of CSS. Maybe a few weeks of Javascript and DHTML.

I agree with what's been said so far about these "GUI" scripting languages/constructs. However, each of these can get EXTREMELY complex. For example, I just finished a set of routines in Javascript that do all kinds of navagation, and although most of the actual lines of code are simple, the script really is a mini program of considerable complexity.

It can get deep, but it ain't nothing you can't master quickly.

jfair